Let's talk history

[nomnganga]

There's this issue that I am failing to understand. The division between xhosa speaking and zulu speaking. apparently, it comes ages back. This is my finding.

There was father named Ntu. (from his name that the so called nguni tribes i.e. xhosa and zulu speaking refer to them abantu meaning people). He then had two twins named Xhosa and Zulu. There came the time of circumcision, with the help of the mother Zulu ran away as he was scared. Apprantly he was very close to the mother, hence the mother gave him a hand and she never wanted to see her some dead. Having said that, Xhosa was very much close to his father and he listened to every word he said.

Zulu ran away with some of her sisters (it's said) and the got into them (ofcourse) and started his own nation. Apparently after the death of the father, he came back to claim his share of his father's things from the brother. Understably so, the brother refused to give out because Zulu ran away and he never gave a hand in looking and raising of everything there was at that point in time. Talk about looking after the cattle, sheep goat et., nursing them, and doing all that hard work. For him to come and claim did not sound nice to Xhosa's ears. Then he went back, to collect his son's. Fighting started. That's tension between this two nation continued till this day. even though to some is not there yet but it can be experienced to some parts of the country. I wonder when will it end.

Saying that the tension still exists, i have a girlfriend from that other side, as I am Xhosa speaking. She tells me straight to ears that she hates xhosas. I'm in the process of trying to change her mindset and make her view things differently. When I tried to ask her why so much hatred. He told me that's how she was raised and talk back at home. (I'm not trying to suggest anything). The kind of treatment I am getting from her friends is not nice at all. They say it out that they do not like me. Reason is simple... because I'm Xhosa..... And it's 2007, but we still find people with that attitude. I'm not saying ine kind find xhosas who hate Zulus, but i haven't as yet.

Maybe it's time we (Xhosas) give back Zulus they share. BUT THEY DID NOT RAISE AND NATURE THE CATTLE (I'm kidding about this last statement)

[Makhosimvelo]

Hey, brother
That is interesting. Of course, it was Shaka Zulu, with much help from his mother, that banned circumcision amongst the youth during the Mfecane, as he did not want to lose valuable fighters to a custom that required weeks, sometimes months from which to heal. Many of the tribes that Shaka defeated and incorporated to form the Zulu nation, are close relatives to tribes that make up the Xhosa nation, apart from their obvious common ancestry as part of the Nguni tribe that moved down the east coast of Africa, and we all know how family can make the bitterest and easiest of enemies (according to history anyway).

Although I merely express my opinions here, I believe that many men would not have appreciated having such an important process taken from them, after all the circumcision and the healing which takes place is the basis for which the group of young men bond and learn together and from their elders what it means to be a man. It is a highly treasured, valued and respected custom, which is significant to many people beside the Xhosa and Zulu. It speaks of one's sense of self, one's societal role. It is not easily replaced, and whilst a man may become a good and powerful man without going through a traditional initiation, it is certainly a great asset to have. I wonder if the Zulus have not felt resentment for this loss, and how the feelings of shame may have been exploited by the Xhosa in times of war (ironically showing that circumcision is not always enough to make a man), hence modern animosities persisting.

There will always be the ignorant - those who persist with prejudice, and it is their choice, usually done from a place of fear, where they lack true self-knowledge, and hence lack confidence. It is often best not to fraternise with such folk, if easily accomplished. If one is unable to avoid such people, the best way of handling it is to not fall in the trap of judging them, and being prejudice toward them. One must practice compassion, understanding, forgiveness. Oh so very difficult, but it is the way to make a difference in this world.

It can't help either when political leaders and the media exploit the mass ignorance, but such is the nature of this human game we play. We dream of another reality, not far from the present, but within it.

Makhos.

[Umfundi]

This is interesting, guys. I won't say too much- First because I self identify neither as Xhosa nor Zulu. And second because I (obviously) do not have any personal experience to relate to the process/tradition of circumcision. But, since the subject of power and oppression (which is often the root of human conflict) is of particular interest, and I appreciate both of your comments, I will add just a bit.

Conflict between people whose identity lays within identifying with different groups goes back as far as the earliest history of (wo)man. It is so unfortunate, as you say Nomnganga, that in today's self proclaimed "modern" and "advanced" era that long standing, and damaging, tension remains. It is more unfortunate that it is maintained as well as facilitated in new ways all around the globe. The only ammunition to fight against it is love. -Just for kicks, I would be curious to knolw what a Zulu person would recite as the explanation for the conflict between Xhosa and Zulu.

It is interesting to me that circumcision was brought up here. As an American woman the initial though of a young (adult) man having such a procedure performed outside the sterile walls of a hospital and then left for months in solitude is shocking- at best. But over the past several years I have learned of its deep importance and significant personal and social impact on the my Xhosa friends. I am fortunate that I can have such open conversations and have gained considerable respect for this custom. American children (in general as some religions or other small groups do) have no "right of passage" and no formalized way to learn the things that are imperative to the social fabric of any community. Understanding one's role (and also one's value) within oneself and one's community is critical in forming a healthy identity and a social consciousness. Modernity, facilitated by the West, offers no structure to facilitate these important values and shuns and/or is condescending towards cultures that maintain so-called "antiquated" traditions or customs. For this I am fearful for all of our children. Africa ( I will use it here generally even though I do not like to lump so many cultures into one basket) has many things to teach and I do believe that this is one of them.

Makhos- I find your last sentence very profound and I will ponder that for some time. Thank you.

[Makhosimvelo]

Thanks, Mfundi
Check out the Mankind Project, www.mkp.org, I believe.
They offer what you speak of as missing from our culture.

I am now a part of the project, and I cannot speak highly enough of the love and commitment of the men involved to work with their shadow selves and to be of service to their communities and to humanity.

You wrote:
"Modernity, facilitated by the West, offers no structure to facilitate these important values and shuns and/or is condescending towards cultures that maintain so-called "antiquated" traditions or customs."

In connection to your words, I feel that society provides us with these tools and paths as an 'out there' alternative, rather then the accepted way, in the forms of the MKP (mankind project), as well as other organisations, such as the Art of Living Foundation. But the media, and the big boys make sure that us, the people, choose other things, like fast cars and fancy clothes. Either we are fools, or we are duped, but I reckon its a bit of both.

But it is the shadow of many of us - Consumption and greed over generosity and responsibility. We keep working at it, but we also keep working for it.

Makhos.

[Umfundi]

True- alternative paths and lifestyle approaches to developing a sense of cultural/community values are largely discredited. But, of course they would be- if one refuses the materialism, excess and the accumulation of wealth as their ultimate goal then the labyrinth of webs that maintains the elite power are compromised. ... Then who will be there to buy all the fancy cars, and shiny watches and new gadgets of the week that ensures their own wealth? In the meantime the social fabric that sustains community (I think that inherently over-consumption is not sustainable) and instills the value of integrity, honesty, sincerity, responsibility, community etc continue to dissolve leaving vast holes. I think people intuitively sense the hollowness but then continue to attempt to fill it with material objects, as they are inscribed to do, to no avail.

Anyway, I don't want to get too political or out there. But it truly amazes me that more people don't see this, or atleast acknowledge it. I understand why many people I know here do not- because it challenges people to look critically at the priviledged lives they take for granted- but globally the number of people who are being exploited to support that lifestyle greatly outweighs the number who experience it. (BTW-- I happen to be one who experiences many of those priviledges, too, so my intent is not to be derogatory or to pass judgement or blame, just to state a fact that deserves some discussion.)

I did check out the website for the MKP- I am glad things like that are being established. I am a little familiar with the Art of Living Foundation already.

[Zithandile umhlaba]

Well, AndiaumXhosa noandiumZulu kodwa

I am trying to learn three languages of conflicting groups Afrikaans, Zulu and Xhosa and what I am learning is that we are all human.

Personally, I never understood many aspects of tribalism in Africa

AmaXhosa hate Amazulu
Hutus hate Tutsis
Mashonas hate Mandebeles

What's up with that?

Of course, I am American so we do have our hatreds here, so I am not being naive.

[ngonyama]

I live in the US (kodwa ndinguHolani) and yes there is some of that here too. Love your neighbor like yourself does not always translate into Spanish either does it? And the US could do with some truth (and reconciliation after it). South Africans were very courageous in that.